On Wednesday, 12 October 2005, at 01:10:14 (+0900),
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)i dont see anything working against - its in parallel and its in a
prototype dir. is he commiting bad code to ewl to make it worse? how
is it working against?
Have you not noticed the frustration and anger it has caused? THAT is
how it's working against the team.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)so is enterminus - has it mvoed from there in months? no. it's
stayed. nice toy. that's it.
The intent is different.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)how is it GOING BEHIND BACKS? its in the open. its in cvs.
You're talking about NOW. I'm talking about BEFORE. Even Simon
himself admits he kept it a secret. Putting what is essentially an
EWL replacement into CVS without so much as a courtesy e-mail to
Nathan is going behind people's backs. You may not agree with me, but
I bet Nathan does, and I know others do too.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)rtheres a disagreement - between mimicking gtk's api to make it easy
to port or learn, or doing something different. how do YOU propose
to have both teams work on the same code? really?
Wrap EWL in a Gtk-like set of API calls. Is it possible? Is it
practical? I have no idea. That's why we DISCUSS things as a GROUP,
not go around making unilateral decisions that affect the project as a
whole.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)what? i have not been supporting anyone? i am trying to bloody well
calm the flamefest. but people keep trying to stoke up the fires.
You've been defending their actions. Your comments have "scolded"
those in the EWL camp for what you perceive as their wrongdoings, but
not once have you confronted the ETK people for what they've done.
Sorry, that's taking sides.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)he did just that - he asked me - i went "put it in proto - see what
peolpe think".
That's fine, but that's not all he should've done. Common courtesy
would dictate at MINIMUM dropping Nathan a note.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)man. you guys are seeing reds under every bed. calm down. man i SAID
to put it into proto.
That should've been communicated to others.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)i am not going to make email announcments every time someoen wants
to commit a tree of working code.
You don't have to. But Simon should've, at least to Nathan.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)cvs commits does it for me and i'm alreayd spending too much time on
this flamefest.
Then stop trying to get in the middle.
People have valid concerns that should be addressed. There are
questions to which Nathan and Dan deserve answers that only Simon and
Hisham can give.
I respect that you're trying to play peacemaker, but in doing so,
you're only making the rift worse and preventing communication.
This all boils down to that: COMMUNICATION. If everyone, yourself
and myself included, would put a higher priority on communications,
this type of thing would be far less frequent.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)i have yeard very little badmouthing. i have heard opinions
expressed - which were not vociferous or undermining.
And you're not around much of the time. Just because you don't see it
doesn't mean it's not happening.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)god damn. i give up. i WROTE SPECIFICALLY that i DO VALUe THE
WORK. i give up at this point. you all will believe whatever it is
you want to believe and read whatever you want to read into it. my
attempts to calm things and keep neutral and stop whats becoming a
lynching are pointless. i am leaning to their side because THEY are
being attacked. not because i am condoning anything. you are using
awfully strong words for something you dont even know all the facts
of.
If I don't know all the facts, then enlighten me. I'm talking about
communication and cooperation. Not knowing all the facts is merely a
symptom of the very problem I'm referring to here! There should've
been better communication.
As for valuing their work, I know you do. And you've said as much. I
was saying that the way the situation was handled could be interpreted
in the opposite way.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)reds under the bed. i repeat. there was no "secrecy"
Simon himself admitted there was:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=enlightenment-devel&m=112875966103118&w=2
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)simon came to me personally saying that he and nathan disagree on
fundamental ewl issues
Ah, there's the rub. Did he say WHAT issues they disagree on?
Because as far as I can tell, no actual issues have been discussed.
**************
If nobody gets anything else from this entire conversation, get this:
If there are issues, disagreements, dislikes, or any other conflicts
regarding EWL, for fuck's sake, SAY SOMETHING! That's really the
bottom line here. If there's a disagreement, then let's disagree! So
far that I've seen, no one has actually pointed out any disagreements
at all.
**************
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)and hes' going to try something - in my quick positiveness i said
"sure - try".
That's fine. Personally, I'd have asked what the disagreements were
first, but that's not to say I'm faulting you for not doing so.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)99.9% of the time anyone ever says they will do aytning they never
come trhough with the goods. i am taking his word at ti that they
disagree. i also saw that ont he mailing lists - simon did start up
some conversation. i am not going to dig it out right now. anyway -
he actual - UNLIKe 99.9% of people, DID SOMETHING - WOW! and
crap. it actually worked. would you believe it. so he asked if he
can put it in - i said to put it in proto and see what peolpe
think. i didn thear from him for a long time beyond him asking edje
and evas questions and bringing up some issues that he even gave me
pathes for to improve edje and evas.
I assume you're talking about this e-mail from July 14th:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=enlightenment-devel&m=112137986609349&w=2
Not one of those issues is a design issue. They're all behavior
requests, and all can easily be rectified (I would think).
I will grant you that no one replied to his e-mail, and someone
should've. But creating an entirely new widget set instead of
correcting behavior in the existing one defies logic. You wonder why
we suspect that there's more going on here than meets the eye? That's
why.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)man - peolpe do that anyway. i've grown a thick skin. as for
trashing - i have yet to see this trashing - i have seen comments
that basically say "i dont like ewl's overall design, look and feel,
and i think the api could be different/better" thats a rough summary
- i have not seen any rude or vociferous language used or any of
this supposed bashing. maybe i have become too cynical, jaded and
thick skinned to notice it and what i take as merely comments you
take as bashing.
Those comments are meaningless, though. Not one of them is a concrete
example. It's like saying "I don't like Carsten." That could mean
anything from "Carsten smells funny" to "Carsten's mom ate my last
doughnut!"
Nathan has asked and asked and asked for concrete examples of flaws in
the design and/or API. As far as I know, he has yet to receive a
single one. If I'm wrong in that, please point me to the location.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)1. there is no conspiracy - it wasnt snuck in. it wasnt done behind
backs. if they wanted to do so they could have set up a closed
private cvs on sf.net and done it away from anyones sight.
Which, ironically, probably would've been better. :-)
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)3. as for negative discussions of ewl i have asked that any ewl
discussions happen with authors present already.
I would also ask that they be constructive and offer concrete
criticisms, not just wide-open airy statements like "I dislike the
API."
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)4. can't we all just get along. this flamefest is not doing anyone
any good.
If it gets the ETK folks to start talking more and pointing out flaws
in EWL, then it will. Or it will bring to light the fact that they
are either unable or unwilling to do so, and that, too, is a good
thing to know.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)5. pick up, move on. what do we hope to GAIN by continuing this? the
only conclusions are "kick hisham and simon out of the e group" and
frankly - there's way too much flakeyness to go kicking people out
who are active and DOING things.
I'm not advocating kicking anyone out. As far as I can tell, no one
has advocated that. What I *am* saying is that people need to work
more as a team.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)7. i repeat Nathan, Dan, Martin, Ben, etc. etc. have done VERY GOOD
WORK. they should BE PROUD OF IT.
Agreed.
Post by Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)8. everyone now go to the bar, have a beer, play some pool, relax,
chill... peace love and flowery things.
You know I don't drink beer. :-P
***
The way I see it, I'm not trying to have a "flamefest." I'm trying to
draw out, beat out, guilt out, etc. the truth. I want communication.
I want honesty. I want to focus on making the best code we can make
in the most efficient, most effective way possible. That means
working together toward a common goal.
Michael
--
Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <***@kainx.org>
n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org)
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